Are you attempting to use reason with religious people?

HEY GUYS. its been awhile.
i wonder if anyone will reply to this within a week... im working lots now and have a shizload of events to attend to despite finishing school :/ might not be able to poke back here almost daily like i used to...

worth putting something up for thinking while im in these couple of months of mental stagnation.

do you have freewill in heaven?
According to Christian teachings, God gave us free will, and seeing as he is omnibenevolent, there is no logical reason for him to withdraw it. However, one could argue that God is far too complex for humans to understand, and so he theoretically could take away free will.
if so... can you 'sin' in heaven?
In theory, yes, although this would be pointless, because supposedly heaven is a paradise, and those that finally reach heaven (or actually reach heaven in the first place, depending on beliefs about purgatory).
if so... can you be thrown out like lucifer?
Possibly, although the New Testament God is described as forgiving, and the chances of being thrown out would be very low.

I LIKE TURTLES!!

ive heard situations where god cleans you out and purges you of sin (including memory wipe so you dont remember loved ones suffering in hell). apparently its acceptable if your soul goes to heaven, but the real you is destroyed.

Mrducky,
First off... Great question. Never heard this one before.
So you know where I'm coming from... I'm a Christian. Reformed protestant, non-denominational blah blah blah.

Also, I'll be referencing books of the Bible. If you want context, use http://www.esvonline.org. Since I'm not sure exactly where you're coming from - I don't want to bore you. You seem smart enough to figure some of this out yourself.

atheist, constantly babbling about religion, occasionally gets bored and hammers down with pictures instead of actual worthwhile content. i want the last word. but its hard to bore me, im dedicated.

I don't expect to woo you with reason, or answer your questions perfectly. But I am willing to try.

I don't claim to know the mind of God. And probably some of what I write will be disputed by Christians from all over. I may come across wrong, and I may actually be wrong.

there are 34 000 - 38 000 denominations of christianity. YOU ARE WRONG, according to someone else, but they dont really count since they are not making their case here.

Check your Bible, I believe it's God's word and I pray everything I write resonates with what's in that book.
Now, what I write probably makes good sense to me, but maybe not to you. So I'll need your help in places where we seem to speak a different language. http://www.studylight.org/lex/grk/
Useful Greek and Hebrew lexicons for the Bible right there.

And finally... I want you to guide the discussion. I don't want to answer questions you're not asking, (though I probably will anyway). So please, ignore what you're not interested in and probe what you want to know more about. No holds barred.



"attempting to use reason with religious people..."

Stereotypes aren't universal, but I'm sad to say this one has a rather strong base... Well, let's see how this attempt goes.


Free will in heaven?
Yea - free will is part of our nature and that won't change. What's the purpose of God going through the whole ruse of free will just to take it away later?

"every knee will bow" at jesus' return. he must be pretty incredible for knees to be bowing as the choice of every human being.

Sin in heaven? This question assumes much, probably more then I can explain.
"Sin is a fundamental relationship; it is not wrong doing, it is wrong
being, deliberate and emphatic independence of God... Other religions deal with sins; the Bible alone deals with sin..." - Oswald Chambers

Check out the book of Romans.
Justification, Sanctification, Glorification. These are the words commonly describing the "steps", "process", "facilitation" by which God takes our sinful selves and transforms us into complete people. In Christ we are justified, during this life we are being sanctified, a process never completed until... heaven, where we are glorified. This completed relationship with God means "sin" no longer as any attraction for us.

regardless if you want to or not, CAN YOU SIN?

If sin is - a relationship, wrong being, independence of God - then perfect connection with God removes sin. Even on this Earth, justification releases us from the power sin holds but sanctification is the healing process by which the damage of sin is undone. Thus, "accepting Jesus" isn't a switch to awesome perfection but rather a commitment of will to obey God in everything. The fruit (Love, joy, peace, patience... Christian values, Integrity, etc) comes later as evidence of our Faith. That's why in James, "Faith without works is dead".

certain sins are merely thoughts, certain ponderings can be blasphemous or sinful in nature. regardless what you know, regardless what others tell you, you might ponder and think the contrary.

"what if the world was flat, how do i independantly verify earth is a sphere?" "i go into space" "realistically speaking..." "i watch a tall ship come across the horizon through binoculars noting i first see the upper decks before i see the whole ship" "done"

now compare to a mere thought in heaven

"so im in heaven, im at peace, im with god... but what if there are other heavens? other peaces? other gods? what if there are multiple worshippable gods and i have only obtained a single level of heaven?" BUH-BUM!!! eternity is a long period of time, and you cant think the same lines of thought over and over, eventually, your mind would wander and seek otherwise you arent really in heaven, merely an imprint of you is there. if your mind is forbidden from wandering, from thinking. then is it heaven or a glorified bird cage?

far more likely, "my mother/father was not a devout christian like me..." BAM. HONOR MOTHER+FATHER FAIL. the mind just needs to stray a little bit. if this straying is forcefully disallowed, freewill isnt there.

Thrown out like Lucifer?
If what I wrote is true, then no. Also, all throughout scripture we're told that Christians cannot lose their salvation, period.
Which is a whole nother question.

mmkay. i only used that to point out possible ramifications to keeping heaven pure from sin.

If not...
I'm not sure I understand this question, but it seems like you're equating Lucifer, an angel, with us, humans. And that's not the case.

we are supposed to be similiar arent we? free will, imperfect, etc.

As for what w1lll wrote, I'd like to respond to just a few things.

God is definitely far beyond our understanding. We are finite, God is infinite. That being said, he has revealed much about his character, in creation, the Bible and in us - his crowning achievement of creation.

The reason heaven is a paradise is because we will have perfect oneness with God.

if most of your consciousness is no longer your own, are you really in heaven or are you only "there in spirit"

SEE THE PUN I MADE THERE?

The reason hell sucks is because it is perfect separation from God (and everything God is about). Which is exactly what people in hell want - God gives it to them. C.S. Lewis wrote that "hell is locked from the inside". I fully believe that people in hell would rather stay in hell than join God in heaven. Check out Luke 16, the rich man doesn't want to go to heaven he just wants some water.



This is complete nonsense. God is sovereign over everything but man is responsible for his own actions. Why wait until the end to do this, why not just clean the slate... or better yet why have free will at all since you knew they would sin, let's just have robotic automatons... This doesn't make sense with free will at all. Or with who God claims to be. Or with how I understand God's reasons for creating everything (to give of himself, a whole nother topic).

technically, thats kind of what happens when you become 'one with god', what happens to those memories of "loved ones seperated". are your feelings of longing for family dulled? do you not care so heaven has no hardship? do you become a robot due to making contact with god's omnipotence giving you reasons like "they chose their fate" which overide your emotions?

ive heard situations where god cleans you out and purges you of sin (including memory wipe so you dont remember loved ones suffering in hell). apparently its acceptable if your soul goes to heaven, but the real you is destroyed.

Mrducky,
First off... Great question. Never heard this one before.
So you know where I'm coming from... I'm a Christian. Reformed protestant, non-denominational blah blah blah.

Also, I'll be referencing books of the Bible. If you want context, use http://www.esvonline.org. Since I'm not sure exactly where you're coming from - I don't want to bore you. You seem smart enough to figure some of this out yourself.

atheist, constantly babbling about religion, occasionally gets bored and hammers down with pictures instead of actual worthwhile content. i want the last word. but its hard to bore me, im dedicated.

Dedicated to what?

discussion.

if you didnt get it, that was a quick overview of where im coming from.

Yep, got the quick overview. I'm glad you're dedicated to discussion, but it was a question with two meanings. I am dedicated to God. What are you dedicated to?

I don't expect to woo you with reason, or answer your questions perfectly. But I am willing to try.

I don't claim to know the mind of God. And probably some of what I write will be disputed by Christians from all over. I may come across wrong, and I may actually be wrong.

there are 34 000 - 38 000 denominations of christianity. YOU ARE WRONG, according to someone else, but they dont really count since they are not making their case here.

Check your Bible, I believe it's God's word and I pray everything I write resonates with what's in that book.
Now, what I write probably makes good sense to me, but maybe not to you. So I'll need your help in places where we seem to speak a different language. http://www.studylight.org/lex/grk/
Useful Greek and Hebrew lexicons for the Bible right there.

And finally... I want you to guide the discussion. I don't want to answer questions you're not asking, (though I probably will anyway). So please, ignore what you're not interested in and probe what you want to know more about. No holds barred.



"attempting to use reason with religious people..."

Stereotypes aren't universal, but I'm sad to say this one has a rather strong base... Well, let's see how this attempt goes.


Free will in heaven?
Yea - free will is part of our nature and that won't change. What's the purpose of God going through the whole ruse of free will just to take it away later?

"every knee will bow" at jesus' return. he must be pretty incredible for knees to be bowing as the choice of every human being.

The knees bowing here is an acknowledgment of the supreme sovereignty of God. The return of Jesus will be the time that we can see God clearly, with our eyes and minds and in such a way that the truth of His nature will be inescapable. It doesn't say that every knee will be forced to bow. It says every knee will bow. Yea, he is that incredible.

every knee forced to bow due to his unadultered incredible-ness... by making it so there is no other option ie. not having your knee bow, surely that is violation of free will (going off topic, but this will always happen with me)

I don't see this as off topic at all, and I think we're missing each other here. Let me paint a picture. Say I told you that I could dunk a basketball. Either you believe me or you don't, maybe you're not sure. But either way you can't be fully, 100%, beyond a shadow of a doubt sure I could dunk a basketball until you saw me do it, right? Even if my old teammates told you I could. Even if I taught someone how to do it, even if Obama told you I dunked over him last week you still couldn't be 100% sure, right? There would still be doubt. Either much doubt and you outright call me a liar, or just some doubt where you are pretty sure it could happen but you may not want to bet your life on it.

Then I dunked in front of you. Undeniably.

Now you're sure. It doesn't matter what you thought before. You can't unknow my dunking abilities.
The same is true with Christ. We may doubt him now, but when the perfect proof comes no one can possibly deny him. It's not a choice, it's a recognition, an understanding.

By the time that day comes, the choices will have already been made - either you are with Christ or against him.



Sin in heaven? This question assumes much, probably more then I can explain.
"Sin is a fundamental relationship; it is not wrong doing, it is wrong
being, deliberate and emphatic independence of God... Other religions deal with sins; the Bible alone deals with sin..." - Oswald Chambers

Check out the book of Romans.
Justification, Sanctification, Glorification. These are the words commonly describing the "steps", "process", "facilitation" by which God takes our sinful selves and transforms us into complete people. In Christ we are justified, during this life we are being sanctified, a process never completed until... heaven, where we are glorified. This completed relationship with God means "sin" no longer as any attraction for us.

regardless if you want to or not, CAN YOU SIN?

I think you're asking the wrong question, which is fine - the New Testament is a really long book. If you're dedicated, go read the ESV Study Bible including all the notes, most of what I know lines up pretty well with what is in that book.

See, it's the wrong question because you're thinking of sin and heaven in a different way than I think of sin and heaven. I can't explain this to you in the same way I can't explain integrals to a calculus student. Sure, I could get you to memorize all the right steps and answers, but you wouldn't understand calculus as I do. There's several different greek words for know, http://www.studylight.org/lex/grk/searc ... rch=Lookup
Particularly look at ginosko and epignosko. I can write until my fingers bleed, but I can't make you see sin, death, heaven, perfection, as I see them.

It's not a yes or no question because from a Biblical perspective, the question doesn't make any sense.

hmmm, i have always seen sin in the simplistic sense of merely disobeying god's directives. the fact that this view of sin fitted with your "become one with god and you wont sin" reinforced that my view of sin was what you were talking about. my bad. you are correct in saying i dont see sin the same way as you do.

As far as the gospel goes, a right understanding of sin is the first step in understanding what Christ did for us (the gospel is who God is and what he did for us). I can tell you all day long that Christ loves you and died for you, but if you don't know what it cost him to defeat sin, it doesn't mean anything. I hope I have at least piqued your interest into understanding the depth of sin.


If sin is - a relationship, wrong being, independence of God - then perfect connection with God removes sin. Even on this Earth, justification releases us from the power sin holds but sanctification is the healing process by which the damage of sin is undone. Thus, "accepting Jesus" isn't a switch to awesome perfection but rather a commitment of will to obey God in everything. The fruit (Love, joy, peace, patience... Christian values, Integrity, etc) comes later as evidence of our Faith. That's why in James, "Faith without works is dead".

certain sins are merely thoughts, certain ponderings can be blasphemous or sinful in nature. regardless what you know, regardless what others tell you, you might ponder and think the contrary.

"what if the world was flat, how do i independantly verify earth is a sphere?" "i go into space" "realistically speaking..." "i watch a tall ship come across the horizon through binoculars noting i first see the upper decks before i see the whole ship" "done"

now compare to a mere thought in heaven

"so im in heaven, im at peace, im with god... but what if there are other heavens? other peaces? other gods? what if there are multiple worshippable gods and i have only obtained a single level of heaven?" BUH-BUM!!! eternity is a long period of time, and you cant think the same lines of thought over and over, eventually, your mind would wander and seek otherwise you arent really in heaven, merely an imprint of you is there. if your mind is forbidden from wandering, from thinking. then is it heaven or a glorified bird cage?

far more likely, "my mother/father was not a devout christian like me..." BAM. HONOR MOTHER+FATHER FAIL. the mind just needs to stray a little bit. if this straying is forcefully disallowed, freewill isnt there.

I see no reason to think that creativity and innovation will stop in heaven. That includes thought. Remember, in heaven you will have complete communion with God. The thought of other heavens and other gods seems ridiculous when infinity, perfect, amazing, etc., God is right there, present with you Did I mention he is infinite? That means we could spend eternity thinking about God and still have more to learn, to think about, to ponder. And we'll be in community in each other.

Also, for your definition of sin - a straying of the mind isn't sin. Dwelling upon it, letting it grow is sin. Check out James 1 - a simple progression is used to describe how we fall into sin. You don't wake up one day and decide to murder your coworkers. It starts as a thought, and you let it grow and grow until it consumes you.
Also, as I mentioned - sin is wrong being, meaning that our desires will be perfected, brought back to how it was before sin entered the world. To how we were before we separated ourselves from God. C.S. Lewis' Mere Christianity is a great book, I think you might like it. The last two paragraphs won't make much sense alone but they deal with the personality of Christians. This makes zero sense out of context, but essentially, the more we lose ourselves to Christ the more of our true selves we become. That sounds terribly cultish and terrible, I know - it's not a topic I can flesh out here.

There are many "assumptions" that can be made during these arguments, and they all fall back on assuming/believing that God is exactly who he says he is. If we start with that one assumption, everything else works.


doesnt matter if its in front of you, the mind wanders. say, i was average middle class in australia. i would wonder what the average middle class is in other countries. how they could be different, why they would be different, how the system of ruling and decision makers would affect that middle class. im just saying, pondering if there might be a different 'perfect' heaven is perfectly normal IMO. you might be experiencing perfection, but that would be a subjective viewpoint, what about others with differing views/feelings. perhaps ive looked too deep into subjective realities but what if one person dislikes the brightness and gets a duller heaven and what if one person dislikes the dullness and gets a brighter heaven? a minor difference like this can expand and grow exponentially for each individual. individuality is what defines us, seperates us, this relates further on if our consciousness would be lost in heaven.

or is the ultimate ending for every human at the end of eternity to be a jesus clone in both mind and spirit?


So, here is the point where relativism has got a hold of you. Today our culture is very individualistic. Not so pre-enlightenment. Remember to be aware of how today's culture has shaped your thinking in particular directions.
True relativism doesn't work. Let's say all truth is relative and no one can make any claims to truth because it's relative. Unfortunately, that's a truth statement, which can't possibly be true because truth is relative. Oops.

Perfection is not subjective because God is perfect and he is absolute. In the same way that you now experientially understand my ability to dunk people in heaven experientially understand God's perfection. Not complete, perfect understanding similar to how you are unsure of the exact mechanics of my dunk, but understanding. Essentially, they now know Truth, God's truth and they know that heaven is perfect, because they know God and God is perfect, thus they also know he doesn't lie. Sure, I can imagine a place where dogs walk humans around on leashes, but really that's just absurd since we know it doesn't exist.
No one in heaven dislikes being there, or wonders about some perfection elsewhere in the same way that you no longer doubt my dunking ability.


As for the second part, regarding individuality. It would defeat God's purpose to engulf our consciousness into his. That doesn't happen, we retain our personality. Remember, the God of the Bible is triune - three persons and one essence, three in one. I won't pretend to have my mind wrapped around this concept, but if it's true then it means that God (somehow still 1), has 3 persons. We don't get added to some group consciousness as that defeats the reason he made us the way we are.

We will not be Jesus clones. There is no group consciousness at the end of the rainbow. We do not go into oblivion. Seriously, read Mere Christianity, and/or all of the New Testament. The idea that we go into a group consciousness is really hard for me to argue against because it is so absurd in light of what is written in the Bible. And I can't think of any mainstream denominations that struggle with this definition of oneness with God.



Thrown out like Lucifer?
If what I wrote is true, then no. Also, all throughout scripture we're told that Christians cannot lose their salvation, period.
Which is a whole nother question.

mmkay. i only used that to point out possible ramifications to keeping heaven pure from sin.

If not...
I'm not sure I understand this question, but it seems like you're equating Lucifer, an angel, with us, humans. And that's not the case.

we are supposed to be similiar arent we? free will, imperfect, etc.

Where do you get that? I have never read anything in the Bible, or from any reputable religious folk who believe humans and angels are on the same level. If you want, we can get into some angelology and demonology.

not same level no... god favours humans better among other differences. im just saying there is a degree of similiarities that can be made

but i prefer not to delve into angels + demons since i know nothing about them and cant be stuffed reading more then i have to for a single point in a single sentence.

As for what w1lll wrote, I'd like to respond to just a few things.

God is definitely far beyond our understanding. We are finite, God is infinite. That being said, he has revealed much about his character, in creation, the Bible and in us - his crowning achievement of creation.

The reason heaven is a paradise is because we will have perfect oneness with God.

if most of your consciousness is no longer your own, are you really in heaven or are you only "there in spirit"

SEE THE PUN I MADE THERE?

You are still entirely you, in the same way that suddenly becoming really good looking, rich, famous and powerful doesn't necessarily change who you are. Now, imagine that the "outside influence" is a perfect, loving God who wants you to be you. Which is the whole reason for free will. It doesn't make sense that this God would want you only "there in spirit". It doesn't fit with the God in the Bible. It may fit with some views of God, or some people's god, but not my God.

not all christians are perfect, and i feel safe saying almost all want to be sinners. god cant want you to be you, then change the situation so that most of "you" is not allowed or cant happen.


No Christian is perfect. Jesus is the only person who remained sinless on Earth.

Loving Jesus, avoiding sin, being a Christian... These things are not painful for me. I do not want to sin. No Christian I know wants to sin. But we do anyways, and sometimes yea, we really want to do something sinful but one part of being a Christian is true repentance. This is not a flippant thing, it is a complete turn around in attitude and a desire for change.
Let's say I'm married, I love my wife. If I did something to hurt her, I would be sad, yes? I don't want to hurt her, but sometimes I'm insensitive or impatient or I get angry, yet I still love her.
I love Jesus - when I disobey him I'm pretty bummed out, doesn't mean I want to disobey him. Christians are not stuck in this set of rules, abiding by this Bible thing until we get awesome heaven. I actually enjoy life. I prefer waiting until marriage, being honest, listening well, showing kindness and all those other goody two-shoes things. That's part of sanctification I mentioned early - you actually enjoy "being good".
Just like eating healthy and getting exercise - eventually, it feels good and you want to do it more and your body gets healthier and you have more energy and you sleep better and live longer and cake holds less appeal and super sweet foods are a little disgusting. (Not that sweets are evil) But when you do binge out, it actually hurts your stomach, because it's so used to being healthy.

Remember what my definition of sin is - wrong standing with God. The Genesis narrative includes "the fall" - when Adam and Eve sinned. Originally, we were created sinless. Sin is an imposed imperfection, a later addition. God wants us to be as we were originally, before sin. Sin is not an innate part of being human.



The reason hell sucks is because it is perfect separation from God (and everything God is about, like Love). Which is exactly what people in hell want - God gives it to them. C.S. Lewis wrote that "hell is locked from the inside". I fully believe that people in hell would rather stay in hell than join God in heaven. Check out Luke 16, the rich man doesn't want to go to heaven he just wants some water.


This is complete nonsense. God is sovereign over everything but man is responsible for his own actions. Why wait until the end to do this, why not just clean the slate... or better yet why have free will at all since you knew they would sin, let's just have robotic automatons... This doesn't make sense with free will at all. Or with who God claims to be. Or with how I understand God's reasons for creating everything (to give of himself, a whole nother topic).

technically, thats kind of what happens when you become 'one with god', what happens to those memories of "loved ones seperated". are your feelings of longing for family dulled? do you not care so heaven has no hardship? do you become a robot due to making contact with god's omnipotence giving you reasons like "they chose their fate" which overide your emotions?

You do not become one with God, like some nirvana or buddhist heaven where you "let go" and "join the abyss". Feelings of longing for family would only be sharpened. Yes. People choose their own fate. Some choose to follow God and others do not. Really, it's the only sad part about death. And it is sad. This is a very complex question, will I grieve over my dead unsaved grandmother while I'm in heaven. I don't know how that will work. Really, it's not that important if you believe that God is who he says he is and will do what he promises.

Heaven has no "hardship". Interesting question. Perhaps heaven will have hardship, difficulty, "pain", but it will be endurable because of Jesus. John Stott sums up how I view this, "The cross does not explain calamity, but it gives us a vantage ground from which to view it and bear it. -Stott"

This section I'm a little more sketchy on the particulars.

many hardships in life are endurable. i just cant see myself (atheist) replacing my entire family (mix of buddhist + atheist) and most of my friends (although many are christian) with jesus. regardless how spectacular bearded man is, being told "they all chose to stay away" seems like a disappointing and unfulfilling answer. esp since most of them grew up in communist china (the hard communism, not the soft modernised one you see today) where religion was pretty much outlawed. i cant really see some of them as the kind of people that would "lock hell from the inside".
me? maybe, i can see a degree of bastardisation in my thinking that could lead to that, but not an eternity of not unlocking locked doors.

Remember that sin separates from God. Without the removal of sin, you cannot stand before a perfect and perfectly holy God.
You should read The Great Divorce by C.S. Lewis. It's a very short book, told as a fictional story of people in hell, visiting heaven. And he does a wonderful job of portraying the reasons that people will, for all eternity, refuse to enter heaven.
And remember - you don't have the ultimate perspective on people's souls. I'm sure Mao's brother thought he was a great guy, and I'm sure Mao thought he was doing good for China, advancing the country... the greater good, right? That shouldn't get him into hell, right? Oh wait, he directly caused the starvation of tens of millions. Doesn't matter what he thought, the truth is important.

And the truth is Romans 3:23-25 - "All have sinned and fall short of the glory of God and are justified by his grace as a gift through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus whom God put forward as a propitiation by his blood, to be received by faith."

That's a long sentence. Don't just skim through it.



btw, from here, it seems heaven isnt perfect, there is "pain" ergo there is suffering. sure, jesus might help you endure, but suffering is suffering, regardless how much pleasure you get from being near god

this section has no particulars, heaven isnt described in enough detail in the bible or anywhere for there to be definites.

Yea, I tried to make a point that is far beyond the scope of this conversation. I apologize.
Let me be clear: There is no suffering in heaven. The John Stott quote refers to suffering on Earth and my intention of relating it to heaven revolves around the idea that hard work isn't suffering. When I go for a really hard run, I enjoy the toil, I enjoy persevering. When I work really hard and make something for someone, the toil is not painful. But again, let me be clear - there is no suffering in heaven.




notice how im too lazy to quote parts individually (instead i use the power of GREEN), and that i have only posted questions to keep discussion alive.

I suppose I'll use blue and we'll see how this works out. Though this will require some cleanup if we will continue to have our separate threads so spread out...

dw, you can mess around with the colours as long as you avoid the admin colours and i forgot which ones they were. regardless, you wont be persecuted here for using colours. i think just avoid red and that should be alright.