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Maximillian · **Posted:** Wed Aug 05, 2009 2:34 pm

mrducky wrote:

depression is depression, suicide can still occur. it is even more likely, if you force a woman by law to continue to carry the *CENSORED* child.

Depression does have different levels of severity. This severity is a key factor to whether or not suicide occurs.

a bunch of cells which are completely unspecialized, can be cultured into stem cells, nerve cells, stomach cells, any cells. no conscious, no definitive notions suggesting life. a person who just died and went brain dead is more alive then those cells. that is what you define as life?

Those cells are produced and designed to become a human being. We've already gone over this.

unnatural, human being is supposed to suffer the consequences of their actions from eating that bad sandwich. how dare they use medicine to end the lives of bacterium. when nature deemed that they should instead have diarrhea until they die from dehydration in a long slow process taking at least a week. how dare they interfere with "life"

The lives of bacterium? They aren't human, and aren't designed to become human.

it doesnt matter what opinion you post from, im biased against your posts, and the mentality that they come from, not the source of that mentality. unless such debate is on that issue COUGHreligiousissuesCOUGH

if you are for sex=conception only, you have very few supporters.

very unpopular movement.[/quote]

I know I have few supporters. I know its unpopular. But as the great Walter Cronkite would say, "And that's the way it is."

mrducky · **Posted:** Thu Aug 06, 2009 4:51 am

Maximillian wrote:

mrducky wrote:

note* im removing my previous green posts to reduce confusion.

Depression does have different levels of severity. This severity is a key factor to whether or not suicide occurs.

so being forced by the law to carry and give birth to a rape child wont cause severe depression? if the trauma from the rape wasnt enough, these people who want to do you good now want you to go through the trauma of an unwanted pregnancy, one that will ruin your career and/or education. hoorah!
Emotional impact
Studies show that most women who have an abortion don’t suffer any subsequent psychological or emotional problems. Women who do experience guilt, depression and grief tend to be those who were coerced into the operation by partners or family.

Australian research indicates that a woman is more likely to suffer emotionally if she feels the decision to terminate was, in some way, not fully hers to make. Legislation that requires a woman to ‘convince’ the doctor of her eligibility for the procedure can cause distress, since the final decision rests with the medical profession, and not the woman herself.
http://www.betterhealth.vic.gov.au/bhcv2/bhcarticles.nsf/pages/Abortion_in_Australia ta da.

Those cells are produced and designed to become a human being. We've already gone over this.

if the gene sequence is correct, yes, it will become a human being.
ill play the "attack the god" card in face up attack mode.
"The age of the mother is also related to the incidence with 20-29 year olds running 12% risk, and women older 45 years � 52%. Miscarriage rate is higher in early trimester, being older, previous miscarriage history, and poor health patients"
god supports miscarriage aka. natural abortion

i know im playing the definition card but... meh
the prevention of life is not murder. it isnt killing if it has no life to be killed with. what is potential life? 1 million sperm die for 1 pregnancy minimum? is that not genocide? infanticide? wholesale mass slaughter under your rigid definition of human life?

The lives of bacterium? They aren't human, and aren't designed to become human.

but they are cells, they are life, a bit of splicing and these unimportant genes are as human as you believe they are. they might not have consciousness but by your defintion it is considered murder since they are life.

if you are for sex=conception only, you have very few supporters.

Quote:

very unpopular movement.

I know I have few supporters. I know its unpopular. But as the great Walter Cronkite would say, "And that's the way it is."

no, i mean the civil backlash when religion joins with state to regulate and oppress females would result in anarchy then a new government with even more stringent rules for womens rights in place. you are the hardcore patriotic, nationalistic communist fascist dreaming of the ideal world. try reality.

Maximillian · **Posted:** Thu Aug 06, 2009 8:43 pm

All right. I haven't put God in here yet but, here it goes. I know you're going to smear this in my face, but, if man goes against God's plan, it is wrong. However, what God does His plan. If you're talking about the system overloaded, God's way of handling this is your so-called, "natural abortion."
Potential life is life. And, please, read this carefully. When the 1 million sperm are destroyed by natural occurrences, it is NOT murder or genocide, or whatever. When 1 million sperm are destroyed by purposeful actions, it is then murder. Nature is not a governed by any person, therefore, it isn't murder.
The bacterium is life, but not HUMAN life. It doesn't become life until manipulation is applied.
The United States has gone far, far beyond state+religion style of government. The churches of the US don't have an control over what laws are made or not. That belongs to the actual government.
The Holy Roman Empire was not an anarchy.
If I was a "nationalistic communist fascist" I would be saying very crude things on this post.
By the way, those three styles of government don't even go together.

The depression. In which ever way the decision is made, it isn't the woman's? I wasn't able to access your link. At this point I can continue with the subject until I can read it for myself.

mrducky · **Posted:** Fri Aug 07, 2009 1:46 am

Maximillian wrote:

All right. I haven't put God in here yet but, here it goes. I know you're going to smear this in my face, but, if man goes against God's plan, it is wrong. However, what God does His plan. If you're talking about the system overloaded, God's way of handling this is your so-called, "natural abortion."

AHAHAHA GOT SUCKED IN. and for bringing god into this, you will get slammed without mercy on this point. i assume you worship an abrahamic god, all powerful, all good, all knowing. he knowingly allows 45 million abortions per year, most are before the 12 week trimester thingy and are simply bled out of the womb like a normal period.
god is good yes? he ended the holocaust, yes? but he allows 45 million "murders" per year? his response? send beard man 2000 years earlier to never preach about abortion.

45 million makes the world wars look like a glancing blow in a fist fight, his all knowingness did not see this?

to prevent abortion on those terms is to make prayer illegal. how dare you, as a mortal, try to interupt gods great PLAN. he may love you, but at the same time, his plan is really important. why screw up his plan by presenting him with a dilemma over how much he loves you?

how many abortions have been happening and continue to happen? has there been even the slightest of signs that god doesnt like it? IMHO in this instance, abortion is part of gods plan. 5/6 people on earth are not christian. the rest fall under various denominations ranging from mormon to roman catholic to protestant. 1/6 humans arriving in heaven is a low number for those going to hell. his solution? populate heaven with innocent fetuses. ones that he cannot punish under his own rules of justice.
ah yes, the wonders of nature, harnessed by man.

Potential life is life. And, please, read this carefully. When the 1 million sperm are destroyed by natural occurrences, it is NOT murder or genocide, or whatever. When 1 million sperm are destroyed by purposeful actions, it is then murder. Nature is not a governed by any person, therefore, it isn't murder.

god governs nature, god murdered the sperm like he "murdered" the sinners in the great flood. hmmm i better step away from playing the god card.

The bacterium is life, but not HUMAN life. It doesn't become life until manipulation is applied.
The United States has gone far, far beyond state+religion style of government. The churches of the US don't have an control over what laws are made or not. That belongs to the actual government.

thats the whole point of seperation of church and state. what are you, confused? deranged? ignorant of your own countries laws and system? (you are american right? im not :/ )
the constitution and the popular vote govern the rights of religion. and the constitution protects you from discrimination but at the same time, limits the role of religion in government so christians (sorry for picking on you) cant control the government and begin crusade #2.
to be fair, ~~~limits the role of religion in government so muslims cant control the government and begin a jihad.
basically, napolean saw that there is a way to prevent religious wars and that was seperation of church and state. the church cant just make up laws. if the law is worthy it can go through the complex process and provided it doesnt screw with the constitution it would be passed.

The Holy Roman Empire was not an anarchy.
If I was a "nationalistic communist fascist" I would be saying very crude things on this post.
By the way, those three styles of government don't even go together.

fascism is extremely nationalistic communism with corporationism, can only be pulled off during wartime so mussolini noted that it only works during wartime and suggested the country be in perpetual warfare until it controls the world. see 1984 by orwell :3 but this isnt on topic and isnt important

The depression. In which ever way the decision is made, it isn't the woman's? I wasn't able to access your link. At this point I can continue with the subject until I can read it for myself.

it is, but that doesnt mean she cant be pressured into an abortion, particularly at a young teenage age. link is working for me. try that link again, maybe you highlighted and copied and missed the first letter or the last letter. worst comes to worst, google "abortion depression rate"

http://www.betterhealth.vic.gov.au/bhcv ... _Australia
thats the working link, its an australian government site, it shouldnt be flagging filters.

msomeoneelsez · **Joined:** Sun May 31, 2009 9:16 pm **Posts:** 126

I have a few points to make here (finally finished reading through haha)

1: Not all abortions lead to depression. To assume that is a complete fallacy.

2: Don't diss on god... people tend not to like it

3: Speaking of god, why does it matter what religion anyone is? This debate has pretty much nothing to do with religion...

Let me explain:

Religion may help guide what someone's values are, and where they believe life starts (I personally believe that a singular being starts at conception, but does not become "conscious" until much later within the pregnancy... more on that later.) The actual belief in itself can be quite separate from religion, therefor religion is not the cause for the belief, it is merely a "helping factor" in which side is chosen by the believer.

4: What about the father's rights?

So much emphasis is placed upon the mother's rights, because it is HER body... but the thing growing inside of her is only half hers. If the father wishes to abstain from relating with the baby or the mother, then yes, it is up to the mother. Should the mother choose to keep the child, then (in America) the father pays child support. Should the father have a problem with this, it doesn't matter because he gave up his rights by not being a part of the decision making process.

I believe that to be a very large part of the argument over abortion, a part that is very often left in the dust.

Going on to my beliefs:

I do firmly believe that the fetus is not actually a part of the woman's body. It is formed partly from her DNA, yes, but once conception hits, the zygote is not a part of her.

This is the part where you bring up a donated organ because it "isn't a part of their body, it has different DNA!" And this is where I define it

A donated organ has different DNA, yes, however it provides a function for the new host body (or whatever you call the person receiving it...) while a child in the womb only takes from the body in order to survive and grow. Yes, a child in the womb is very similar to a parasite in that sense... and a tapeworm is not a part of the host's body, is it?

I also believe that life as a single being does start at conception... the DNA is different from either the mother or the father, and it is growing on its own, although it does take nutrients from the mother for this process to be accomplished. However, I firmly deny that this new lifeform has anything resembling a soul, mind, or consciousness until later in the pregnancy. What that point is, I don't know (I'm no expert on pregnancy, and don't plan to be for at least a few more years!) What I do know for a fact though is that babies in the womb do respond to outside stimuli as a completely separate entity from its mother, i.e. when a baby kicks.

So yes, quite obviously consciousness does start sometime during the pregnancy.

And now I have one last item:
Is murder the destruction of human life, or instead is it the destruction of human consciousness?

simmen · **Posted:** Fri Aug 07, 2009 3:41 am

msomeoneelsez wrote:

I have a few points to make here (finally finished reading through haha)

1: Not all abortions lead to depression. To assume that is a complete fallacy.
true

2: Don't diss on god... people tend not to like it

bring god into the discussion as a factor and he will get dissed

3: Speaking of god, why does it matter what religion anyone is? This debate has pretty much nothing to do with religion...
religion is a big part of the desition and in some religions it's illegal to take abortion
Let me explain:

Religion may help guide what someone's values are, and where they believe life starts (I personally believe that a singular being starts at conception, but does not become "conscious" until much later within the pregnancy... more on that later.) The actual belief in itself can be quite separate from religion, therefor religion is not the cause for the belief, it is merely a "helping factor" in which side is chosen by the believer.
not entirely true, in some religions it's illegal to take abortion and taking one will mean ur leving ur religion
4: What about the father's rights?

So much emphasis is placed upon the mother's rights, because it is HER body... but the thing growing inside of her is only half hers. If the father wishes to abstain from relating with the baby or the mother, then yes, it is up to the mother. Should the mother choose to keep the child, then (in America) the father pays child support. Should the father have a problem with this, it doesn't matter because he gave up his rights by not being a part of the decision making process.

I believe that to be a very large part of the argument over abortion, a part that is very often left in the dust.
i totaly agree! but the father have no right[as it is now] in the desition of an abortion, and the wife/gf forcing it on him might be enough for him to leave her, and end up paying child suport in 18 years because he had no rights.
Going on to my beliefs:

I do firmly believe that the fetus is not actually a part of the woman's body. It is formed partly from her DNA, yes, but once conception hits, the zygote is not a part of her.

This is the part where you bring up a donated organ because it "isn't a part of their body, it has different DNA!" And this is where I define it

A donated organ has different DNA, yes, however it provides a function for the new host body (or whatever you call the person receiving it...) while a child in the womb only takes from the body in order to survive and grow. Yes, a child in the womb is very similar to a parasite in that sense... and a tapeworm is not a part of the host's body, is it?

I also believe that life as a single being does start at conception... the DNA is different from either the mother or the father, and it is growing on its own, although it does take nutrients from the mother for this process to be accomplished. However, I firmly deny that this new lifeform has anything resembling a soul, mind, or consciousness until later in the pregnancy. What that point is, I don't know (I'm no expert on pregnancy, and don't plan to be for at least a few more years!) What I do know for a fact though is that babies in the womb do respond to outside stimuli as a completely separate entity from its mother, i.e. when a baby kicks.

So yes, quite obviously consciousness does start sometime during the pregnancy.

And now I have one last item:
Is murder the destruction of human life, or instead is it the destruction of human consciousness?

yes it become alive in the pregnancy, we are talking early in the pregnancy here.'
by law?
life
but if some one lose he's/her consciousness there is no life

mrducky · **Posted:** Fri Aug 07, 2009 8:48 am

simmen wrote:

msomeoneelsez wrote:

I have a few points to make here (finally finished reading through haha)

1: Not all abortions lead to depression. To assume that is a complete fallacy.
true

fallacy is fun

2: Don't diss on god... people tend not to like it

bring god into the discussion as a factor and he will get dissed

he started it *points finger* i maintained that this is an argument on abortion, and if he wants seconds, im ready and cannons are armed. basically, what sinmen said
3: Speaking of god, why does it matter what religion anyone is? This debate has pretty much nothing to do with religion...
religion is a big part of the desition and in some religions it's illegal to take abortion
who is the main proponent of fighting abortion legislation? religious groups. who routinely rants around the world? pope. religion loves to force their beliefs on others. it cannot be helped if they sincerly believe they are saving people from eternal burny. it doesnt mean you cant tell them to gtfo. and leave us alone

Let me explain:

Religion may help guide what someone's values are, and where they believe life starts (I personally believe that a singular being starts at conception, but does not become "conscious" until much later within the pregnancy... more on that later.) The actual belief in itself can be quite separate from religion, therefor religion is not the cause for the belief, it is merely a "helping factor" in which side is chosen by the believer.
not entirely true, in some religions it's illegal to take abortion and taking one will mean ur leving ur religion
4: What about the father's rights?

So much emphasis is placed upon the mother's rights, because it is HER body... but the thing growing inside of her is only half hers. If the father wishes to abstain from relating with the baby or the mother, then yes, it is up to the mother. Should the mother choose to keep the child, then (in America) the father pays child support. Should the father have a problem with this, it doesn't matter because he gave up his rights by not being a part of the decision making process.

please cover rape. cause that father might be one sadistic ***** of a rapist
feminism never covered the fact that a mother can be a druggy, on welfare and have no hope for the future but still have a higher chance for custody then the father. maternal instincts are stronger then fatherhood instincts, its the evolutionary advantage, mothers look after the children, men get smashed to little red smudges by Mr Mammoth.
in short, a child at the wrong time can easily weigh down the father preventing an education and/or career opportunities as raising a baby requires a job and a lot of effort.
the lack of fathers rights is balanced with more lack of rights. they cant infringe on the woman and force her to go through an abortion :3

I believe that to be a very large part of the argument over abortion, a part that is very often left in the dust.
i totaly agree! but the father have no right[as it is now] in the desition of an abortion, and the wife/gf forcing it on him might be enough for him to leave her, and end up paying child suport in 18 years because he had no rights.
Going on to my beliefs:

I do firmly believe that the fetus is not actually a part of the woman's body. It is formed partly from her DNA, yes, but once conception hits, the zygote is not a part of her.

funny, cause until 12 weeks, one can go through an abortion medically, taking a pill that induces the manstrual cycle and those cells would be bled out.
for me, anything after 12 weeks is bordering madness unless there is an excellent reason to do so.
partial birth or late term is murder, you cant suger coat that even if you try and should only be taken if there is danger to the womans life or the baby will have extreme complications and is likely to suffer and die anyways.
up to 12 weeks, it can be aborted by seeking a GP and perhaps a psychologist. anything later requires a tonne of medical professions who ultimately make the decision.

This is the part where you bring up a donated organ because it "isn't a part of their body, it has different DNA!" And this is where I define it

nope, no one cares about the smoker who lost a liver. or the unicorn who stol charlie's kidney for the snowman.

A donated organ has different DNA, yes, however it provides a function for the new host body (or whatever you call the person receiving it...) while a child in the womb only takes from the body in order to survive and grow. Yes, a child in the womb is very similar to a parasite in that sense... and a tapeworm is not a part of the host's body, is it?

I also believe that life as a single being does start at conception... the DNA is different from either the mother or the father, and it is growing on its own, although it does take nutrients from the mother for this process to be accomplished. However, I firmly deny that this new lifeform has anything resembling a soul, mind, or consciousness until later in the pregnancy. What that point is, I don't know (I'm no expert on pregnancy, and don't plan to be for at least a few more years!) What I do know for a fact though is that babies in the womb do respond to outside stimuli as a completely separate entity from its mother, i.e. when a baby kicks.

i dont think it needs to respond to outside stimuli, if it has more consciousness then the common ant then i guess it is human, but if it is merely an unconscious *BEAT HEART THAT DOESNT PUMP BLOOD YET* *BEAT HEART* *BEAT HEART* *BEAT HEART* *BEAT HEART* then probs not.

So yes, quite obviously consciousness does start sometime during the pregnancy.

if i turn into a vegetable, i would not consider myself as life. "i think therefore i am". if i am merely a slab of meat for others to feed and clean the poop out of my pants, you might as well have tortured me to death. but thats just me and ill assume some family members would keep me around like a token.

And now I have one last item:
Is murder the destruction of human life, or instead is it the destruction of human consciousness?

murder is life, they lack life. turning people into vegetables is illegal but it isnt murder.
yes it become alive in the pregnancy, we are talking early in the pregnancy here.'
by law?
life
but if some one lose he's/her consciousness there is no life

Maximillian · **Posted:** Fri Aug 07, 2009 12:57 pm

mrducky wrote:

AHAHAHA GOT SUCKED IN. and for bringing god into this, you will get slammed without mercy on this point. i assume you worship an abrahamic god, all powerful, all good, all knowing. he knowingly allows 45 million abortions per year, most are before the 12 week trimester thingy and are simply bled out of the womb like a normal period.
god is good yes? he ended the holocaust, yes? but he allows 45 million "murders" per year? his response? send beard man 2000 years earlier to never preach about abortion.

45 million makes the world wars look like a glancing blow in a fist fight, his all knowingness did not see this?

to prevent abortion on those terms is to make prayer illegal. how dare you, as a mortal, try to interupt gods great PLAN. he may love you, but at the same time, his plan is really important. why screw up his plan by presenting him with a dilemma over how much he loves you?

how many abortions have been happening and continue to happen? has there been even the slightest of signs that god doesnt like it? IMHO in this instance, abortion is part of gods plan. 5/6 people on earth are not christian. the rest fall under various denominations ranging from mormon to roman catholic to protestant. 1/6 humans arriving in heaven is a low number for those going to hell. his solution? populate heaven with innocent fetuses. ones that he cannot punish under his own rules of justice.
ah yes, the wonders of nature, harnessed by man.

If I got sucked in, I may as well keep going. God gave man free will. He doesn't force us to love Him (like you). True love isn't love unless one chooses to do so. Man has abused his free will. How dare you to talk of God's plan when you do not even worship him? Roman Catholic, Mormonism, and protestant denominations are all Christian. The belief in Christ=Christian.

god governs nature, god murdered the sperm like he "murdered" the sinners in the great flood. hmmm i better step away from playing the god card.

God does govern nature. And what did I say before? He has His own agenda. As you said earlier, who are you to question His plan? We were not meant to decide who lives and dies. That job lies with God. The flood was a one time deal. That sort of disaster doesn't come again until the Armageddon.
And yes, you should step away form the God card.

thats the whole point of seperation of church and state. what are you, confused? deranged? ignorant of your own countries laws and system? (you are american right? im not :/ )
the constitution and the popular vote govern the rights of religion. and the constitution protects you from discrimination but at the same time, limits the role of religion in government so christians (sorry for picking on you) cant control the government and begin crusade #2.
to be fair, ~~~limits the role of religion in government so muslims cant control the government and begin a jihad.
basically, napolean saw that there is a way to prevent religious wars and that was seperation of church and state. the church cant just make up laws. if the law is worthy it can go through the complex process and provided it doesnt screw with the constitution it would be passed.

Basic civil class. Of course I know all this. The Constitution protects us. Freedom of religion. Kennedy was the first Catholic president, but kept his distance from the whole thing of church controlled country. I know all this. I am American. I don't need a lesson from someone who isn't.

fascism is extremely nationalistic communism with corporationism, can only be pulled off during wartime so mussolini noted that it only works during wartime and suggested the country be in perpetual warfare until it controls the world. see 1984 by orwell :3 but this isnt on topic and isnt important

A facism is a state controlled dictatorship. Communism is defined as goods being owned by the common. Equal commune. During WWII, the nationalistic Nazi party was a sworn enemy of the Bolsheviks, a communistic party.

it is, but that doesnt mean she cant be pressured into an abortion, particularly at a young teenage age. link is working for me. try that link again, maybe you highlighted and copied and missed the first letter or the last letter. worst comes to worst, google "abortion depression rate"

http://www.betterhealth.vic.gov.au/bhcv ... _Australia
thats the working link, its an australian government site, it shouldnt be flagging filters.[/quote]

If the girl was pressured, then blame is not put on her. The link says the depression is more likely to occur if it was coerced. That does not mean an abortion by free will won't cause depression.
I know you're going to hate it, but the woman in the Roe v. Wade case (don't quite know her real name) had a very hard and long period of depression. And the abortion was by free will.

mrducky · **Posted:** Fri Aug 07, 2009 10:07 pm

Maximillian wrote:

mrducky wrote:

If I got sucked in, I may as well keep going. God gave man free will. He doesn't force us to love Him (like you). True love isn't love unless one chooses to do so. Man has abused his free will. How dare you to talk of God's plan when you do not even worship him? Roman Catholic, Mormonism, and protestant denominations are all Christian. The belief in Christ=Christian.

how dare you talk of nature when you dont worship gaia, titan god from greek mythology.
dont be so discriminatory, what would jesus do? he wouldnt push me down because i noted gods plan but dont worship him. i dont believe jesus was the son of god, but i understand he was a real human and by the looks of things, a man of good morals. so in short, let me talk of gods plans. how dare you dare interfere with gods plan by praying so HMMMPH! seriously, if god is that peed off that i dare talk about his plans to eventually condemn everyone but christians to fiery death for eternity then LET HIM BE PISSED. that isnt a god. that barely constitutes as a monster.
did you know the mormons have a better more up to date bible then yours?
anyways, freewill... ill just give you a logical conundrum. god is all powerful, all knowing and all good according the abrahamic god that islam, judaism and christianity worship. he has seen the future, he has already acted in the future. that is his plan. he created you knowingly setting the moral restraints like toby will not eat everyone in his family then destroy the world. is it free will if he has predetermined and predictated all your actions? it may seem like "ooh im gonna stab this small child" is your own thought, but isnt it also gods? did he not create you to carry that thought? knowingly create you, knowing the consequences. that is not free will.
besides, WORSHIP ME OR BURN is not how normal people make friends/lovers. its not free will if the 2 options are 1. worship me and live happy or 2. dont worship me and burn.
in short, god doesnt exist if free will exists and vice versa

~~~~~~~~~~~~

God does govern nature. And what did I say before? He has His own agenda. As you said earlier, who are you to question His plan? We were not meant to decide who lives and dies. That job lies with God. The flood was a one time deal. That sort of disaster doesn't come again until the Armageddon.
And yes, you should step away form the God card.

"And yes, you should step away form the God card. " - you started it. ill finish it.
he has his own agenda, is your life that important enough to pray for a difference? would praying do anything if he already knew you would pray and thus would have acted accordingly if he liked you or just give you a crappy day if he didnt.
"We were not meant to decide who lives and dies." - umm, yes we are, its called "free will"

LOLOLOLWTFBBQMONSTERFACE
did you see how i managed to flip that on you?
"The flood was a one time deal. That sort of disaster doesn't come again until the Armageddon. " - so that whole "lets kill all first born in egypt regardless of age" didnt count? thou shalt not kill. unless god tells you to, then DAVID THROW THAT ROCK... HEADSHOT!. KILLING SPREE. *unreal tournament voice*
M-M-M-MEGAKILL. GODLIKE... lol... have you gotten godlike in UT? instagib and some luck and its quite easy :3

~~~~~~~~~~~~

Basic civil class. Of course I know all this. The Constitution protects us. Freedom of religion. Kennedy was the first Catholic president, but kept his distance from the whole thing of church controlled country. I know all this. I am American. I don't need a lesson from someone who isn't.

then why complain that the church has no say in law? thats the entire point of separation of church and state. a religious person has the same amount of say in abortion as anyone else. too bad people believe in rights of the human. and people have defined that tiny sac of cells as non human.

~~~~~~~~~~~~

A facism is a state controlled dictatorship. Communism is defined as goods being owned by the common. Equal commune. During WWII, the nationalistic Nazi party was a sworn enemy of the Bolsheviks, a communistic party.

werent the bolsheviks russian? nvm, drop this. communism generally results in a dictatorship style figurehead with an ogligarchy doing everything else.

it is, but that doesnt mean she cant be pressured into an abortion, particularly at a young teenage age. link is working for me. try that link again, maybe you highlighted and copied and missed the first letter or the last letter. worst comes to worst, google "abortion depression rate"

http://www.betterhealth.vic.gov.au/bhcv ... _Australia
thats the working link, its an australian government site, it shouldnt be flagging filters.

If the girl was pressured, then blame is not put on her. The link says the depression is more likely to occur if it was coerced. That does not mean an abortion by free will won't cause depression.
I know you're going to hate it, but the woman in the Roe v. Wade case (don't quite know her real name) had a very hard and long period of depression. And the abortion was by free will.
i wonder why... and in her time of weakness the catholic church swooped in and took her up. and she never aborted since most supreme court cases take more then the 9 month gestation period. so why was she depressed? because everyone was screaming at her if she was depressed at all >.>[/quote]

Maximillian · **Posted:** Sun Aug 09, 2009 11:15 pm

mrducky wrote:

how dare you talk of nature when you dont worship gaia, titan god from greek mythology.
dont be so discriminatory, what would jesus do? he wouldnt push me down because i noted gods plan but dont worship him. i dont believe jesus was the son of god, but i understand he was a real human and by the looks of things, a man of good morals. so in short, let me talk of gods plans. how dare you dare interfere with gods plan by praying so HMMMPH! seriously, if god is that peed off that i dare talk about his plans to eventually condemn everyone but christians to fiery death for eternity then LET HIM BE PISSED. that isnt a god. that barely constitutes as a monster.
did you know the mormons have a better more up to date bible then yours?
anyways, freewill... ill just give you a logical conundrum. god is all powerful, all knowing and all good according the abrahamic god that islam, judaism and christianity worship. he has seen the future, he has already acted in the future. that is his plan. he created you knowingly setting the moral restraints like toby will not eat everyone in his family then destroy the world. is it free will if he has predetermined and predictated all your actions? it may seem like "ooh im gonna stab this small child" is your own thought, but isnt it also gods? did he not create you to carry that thought? knowingly create you, knowing the consequences. that is not free will.
besides, WORSHIP ME OR BURN is not how normal people make friends/lovers. its not free will if the 2 options are 1. worship me and live happy or 2. dont worship me and burn.
in short, god doesnt exist if free will exists and vice versa

God is nature, so why would I believe in the Greek gods? My thoughts are indeed my own. I choose to or not to follow what God intends for me. Perhaps he wants me to marry a girl. That is His plan. But, because of free will, I have the decision to not marry at all. Of course God can exist with free will. I won't even go into the whole Mormon thing.

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"And yes, you should step away form the God card. " - you started it. ill finish it.
he has his own agenda, is your life that important enough to pray for a difference? would praying do anything if he already knew you would pray and thus would have acted accordingly if he liked you or just give you a crappy day if he didnt.
"We were not meant to decide who lives and dies." - umm, yes we are, its called "free will"

LOLOLOLWTFBBQMONSTERFACE
did you see how i managed to flip that on you?
"The flood was a one time deal. That sort of disaster doesn't come again until the Armageddon. " - so that whole "lets kill all first born in egypt regardless of age" didnt count? thou shalt not kill. unless god tells you to, then DAVID THROW THAT ROCK... HEADSHOT!. KILLING SPREE. *unreal tournament voice*
M-M-M-MEGAKILL. GODLIKE... lol... have you gotten godlike in UT? instagib and some luck and its quite easy :3

I did NOT start the God debate. That was you, my friend. People pray because they ask God for grace, or mercy, or for whatever. God can change His agenda. It's like asking your boss if he would give you a raise or second chance. God does decide who lives and dies. It is because of our abuse of free will that we murder. The first borns of Egypt was not the entire world, such as the flood. The Egypt deal was because the Pharaoh would not let the Hebrews free. The Pharaoh did have a first born son. God planned this because of the evil abuse the Pharaoh used with his free will as king of Egypt.

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then why complain that the church has no say in law? thats the entire point of separation of church and state. a religious person has the same amount of say in abortion as anyone else. too bad people believe in rights of the human. and people have defined that tiny sac of cells as non human.

I didn't complain. It would be nice, but I didn't complain.

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i wonder why... and in her time of weakness the catholic church swooped in and took her up. and she never aborted since most supreme court cases take more then the 9 month gestation period. so why was she depressed? because everyone was screaming at her if she was depressed at all >.>
??? Am I hearing that the Catholic church was kind to someone? There is this thing called forgiveness. The depression did come from the abortion.

ABORTION